What a difference that makes at the scanning process - I might give it a try on some of my fathers old negs and see if I can improve the images. Just out of interest, I use an Epson V500 and it's got frames to scan the negs which aren't very good ...are you placing the negs on the bed of the scanner without a holding frame?
no. from my experience the quality of the scan is better if film is suspended in between the 2 scanning "lights"(the one on the body of scanner and the one on the lid). my frames are in very good condition but once i got a film that was dried "wrong" so i couldn't get it flat no matter what i've tried. so i put the film in between 2 sheets of glas and scan it like that. wasn't the best scan but it did keep the film away from the light.
never tried to scan a film using a camera but people get good results from it.
You're right there, it's the older negs that are an issue - I was scanning negs that were from around 1920 onwards and weren't in the best condition. I might post in future to show the images I found - some interesting history in them.
I too want to hear how that goes, Lin! I use the Epson V600 and had the same questions from your original comment. A few months ago, I created a post in which I discussed scanning. It's still not something I enjoy doing because I know from my own printing I can get the best out of the image, so when I go to scan, no matter if the film is flat or suspended or if I use a camera, it's never going to be what I can do in my darkroom (which I becomes another long endeavor, so I end up not doing it). When I finish some projects I want to try at it again. Printing in the darkroom is incredibly satisfying but in the meantime, having a scanning club where we can compare notes is maybe a good idea!
Good question Lin! Maybe Perfectlight has an answer for this too. I have an Epson V550 which has on the above lid a glass strip from where the light comes. That’s why we have the frames so that the negative strip fits exactly under this glass. I don’t like this I much as can’t scan my old glass negatives (when they are larger than this thin glass strip). I’ve heard that new Epson scanners like the V880 don’t have this issue anymore. If you are scanning a document or a paper photo, you just lay them the on the scan bed and it will be alright.
it is simple, my 4490 has an extra plastic lid with some sort of foam that can be attached to top lid of scanner for scanning paper. the difference is when scanning paper there's no need for 2 lights, paper is not transparent - film is.
Thanks Luis, I've also had issues with the V500 software where certain buttons are there but don't actually appear - you have to guess where they are! When I contacted Epson they told me support for the V500 ranges had stopped and to get a new scanner - very helpful! 😂
that't one of the reasons i refuse to change my 15 years old desktop - nobody gives you a software on a cd anymore, a software which i can install and uninstall as many times as i want
I'm with you on the desktop issue. I'm still running on Windows 8. I also like being able to have a physical disc that I can use to reinstall software as and when I need to. As they say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" ☺️
As perfectlight says,Lin, directly on the glass most likely won't give the best results. I can't speak for later directly, but my old 4870 focus sweet-spot is about 1.5 - 2mm above the glass. Epsons of the 4870's vintage were known for having variable heights for optimum focus (manufacturing tolerances presumably - some focussed below the glass bed so nothing could be done) and this may still apply to later models. If I were to scan 35mm I'd still use my original neg carrier but raised off the glass further with strips of appropriate thickness card. It might be worth experimenting with different heights. Sandwiching the neg strip between two pieces of glass certainly keep it nice and flat, but you may run into the issue of 'newton's rings', a somewhat less than desirable interference effect where surfaces meet. For 120 size negs I have homemade black cardboard mask of the appropriate thickness with an aperture cut in it for 6x4.5 or 6x6 etc and I place the neg over it, then place a piece of anti-newton glass over it to hold it flat. A-N glass can be obtained online. Sorry to waffle on so much, but I hope some of this might help.
this is not a waffle, those are very good explanations and lessons that can be learned. your "waffle" can help lots of people, thank you for your comment!
When I first got my 4870 back in the early noughties there were a couple of discussion groups, one on yahoo and the other on the (sadly now long defunct) photo-i website about the Epsons and flatbeds in general. These places were great and were where I picked up a number of these little tricks from other more experienced folk. It's a shame they are no longer available.
With my 4870 scanning resolution sweetspot is 2400ppi. Anything more doesn't really gain anything image-wise. Using Epson's quoted max res of 4800ppi just results in a lot of empty resolution and unneccesarily large files. There was a useful trick I picked up back then from a guy who went by the online handle Kev.germany (or something like that) - if you set the scanning resolution to 2405ppi (assuming you normally go for 2400) you get a small but noticeable increase in very fine detail. No-one at the time knew why, but it worked, so I always follow that proceedure. You could scan at max resolution and downsize in your editor to grt the absolute most out of it, but that's obviously much more of a faff-on time and effort wise. Well, I seem to be on a roll this morning with my waffle lol😂
This makes complete sense Ralph - I had to scan around 100 of dads negs all of them 9x6 which was quite a faff with the frames that came with the scanner. Home made with black card makes sense. The white light from the top of the scanner is in a strip as Luis has mentioned so a home made frame and AN glass that aligns to that is going to be my best bet - maybe made with mountboard??? Looks like I'll be experimenting again...along with everything else!😄
Mountboard sounds good, though you may want to black the edges of the cut-out to avoid reflections (or you may not - it might be fine as-is). There’s a company called betterscanning.com started many years ago by a guy called Doug Fisher, who designed custom film carrier units for various flatbed scanners, that have AN glass and adjustable height. The site looks rather dated, so I don’t know if they’re still going. It may be worth an email if you’re interested.
Wow - there's a site for everything if you dig deep! A useful one to bare in mind. Only issue is they're US based which I imagine means we're now subject to ridiculous taxes to get goods into the country. Looks like there's an opening for a clever soul to do this over here in the UK.😊
I know of this company, Ralph and I almost bought new carriers for my V600 but decided to try the manual, dedicated camera approach first. Honestly, the quality is finicky so I may end up buying the carrier. We shall see!
few people here on substack are swearing by "scanning" with a camera and especially a macro lens. i don't know, never tried it but as long as my 4490 is going, i'm happy
I tried it and to me, it does give a bit more, but maybe I'm being highly picky and nothing will ever be good enough! I'm trying to make sure I am doing things right though before I give up. It could be just because I miss printing in the darkroom and find the prints so magical.
LOMOGRAPHY sells a good 35mm and 120 carrier for curly negatives. It's magnetic and pulls the neg nice and flat. However, it's a little thicker than the original holders and depending on the scanner specs and scanning software you may have to adjust the focus. Not supported in all scanners. Also great for DSLR scanning if not.
Such a nice post, Perfectlight! We’re always learning when we experiment which only shows that we have to do it much, much more! We forget also too often that is because people before us experimented that we can have/do a lot the things that we do now. I’m going to write EXPERIMENT in big letters and stick it to my computer.😊
A thought about scanning your B&W as color. For starters, you just aren't getting a decent exposure on your b&w scan. However that's being set up it's quite underexposed based on the histogram. The shadows are crushed and there is nothing in the hilight end. The color version histogram looks very good. So if your exposure was adjusted in the b&w you ought to see virtually the same image either way. Where it would matter is in the printed image if you choose to print it in full color instead of greyscale. You would get much richer blacks and more tonal range as you would with a darkroom print. The catch, though is that printing a b&w in color is likely to show color casts if it's a fraction out of register. I use printing software that scales back the other colors to avoid that. I think SilverEfex Pro is wonderful software but you have to start with a full color scan to get the benefit of the filters - green, orange, red, yellow, etc. - and simulate the effects I used to get with film. Those were the days.
your input is appreciated, very good points. i have no intention of printing that image not in a darkroom nor digitally. my idea for this post was to show how scanner can be used to give more option and be more creative. why the exposure changed when scanning in 2 different setting, i have no idea. yes, i have the option to manually change the exposure while i'm scanning but i didn't touch that.
I love this! I have a 4990 and guess what I'll be doing for my next scans lol? What scan software are you using? I have silverfast and vuescan, new to the latter, the former can be complicated but there a lot of great features, like manual focusing, except you need a license for every scanner!
What a difference that makes at the scanning process - I might give it a try on some of my fathers old negs and see if I can improve the images. Just out of interest, I use an Epson V500 and it's got frames to scan the negs which aren't very good ...are you placing the negs on the bed of the scanner without a holding frame?
no. from my experience the quality of the scan is better if film is suspended in between the 2 scanning "lights"(the one on the body of scanner and the one on the lid). my frames are in very good condition but once i got a film that was dried "wrong" so i couldn't get it flat no matter what i've tried. so i put the film in between 2 sheets of glas and scan it like that. wasn't the best scan but it did keep the film away from the light.
never tried to scan a film using a camera but people get good results from it.
You're right there, it's the older negs that are an issue - I was scanning negs that were from around 1920 onwards and weren't in the best condition. I might post in future to show the images I found - some interesting history in them.
ooo, wooowww!!! please, please do! and tell us about the whole experiment
I too want to hear how that goes, Lin! I use the Epson V600 and had the same questions from your original comment. A few months ago, I created a post in which I discussed scanning. It's still not something I enjoy doing because I know from my own printing I can get the best out of the image, so when I go to scan, no matter if the film is flat or suspended or if I use a camera, it's never going to be what I can do in my darkroom (which I becomes another long endeavor, so I end up not doing it). When I finish some projects I want to try at it again. Printing in the darkroom is incredibly satisfying but in the meantime, having a scanning club where we can compare notes is maybe a good idea!
A scanning club - that could be a thing! 😄
The SSC (Substack Scanning Club).... mm, has a certain ring to it! ☺️
he he!! it does!
Good question Lin! Maybe Perfectlight has an answer for this too. I have an Epson V550 which has on the above lid a glass strip from where the light comes. That’s why we have the frames so that the negative strip fits exactly under this glass. I don’t like this I much as can’t scan my old glass negatives (when they are larger than this thin glass strip). I’ve heard that new Epson scanners like the V880 don’t have this issue anymore. If you are scanning a document or a paper photo, you just lay them the on the scan bed and it will be alright.
it is simple, my 4490 has an extra plastic lid with some sort of foam that can be attached to top lid of scanner for scanning paper. the difference is when scanning paper there's no need for 2 lights, paper is not transparent - film is.
Well, that’s it then. My model has the glas on the top lid fixed so, I’ll have to do with that. Maybe I’ll buy a V880 when they decrease on price.😁
mine is fixed too but can be covered with the extra piece that i mentioned
Thanks, Perfectlight! Will experiment it!😊
Thanks Luis, I've also had issues with the V500 software where certain buttons are there but don't actually appear - you have to guess where they are! When I contacted Epson they told me support for the V500 ranges had stopped and to get a new scanner - very helpful! 😂
that't one of the reasons i refuse to change my 15 years old desktop - nobody gives you a software on a cd anymore, a software which i can install and uninstall as many times as i want
I'm with you on the desktop issue. I'm still running on Windows 8. I also like being able to have a physical disc that I can use to reinstall software as and when I need to. As they say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" ☺️
As perfectlight says,Lin, directly on the glass most likely won't give the best results. I can't speak for later directly, but my old 4870 focus sweet-spot is about 1.5 - 2mm above the glass. Epsons of the 4870's vintage were known for having variable heights for optimum focus (manufacturing tolerances presumably - some focussed below the glass bed so nothing could be done) and this may still apply to later models. If I were to scan 35mm I'd still use my original neg carrier but raised off the glass further with strips of appropriate thickness card. It might be worth experimenting with different heights. Sandwiching the neg strip between two pieces of glass certainly keep it nice and flat, but you may run into the issue of 'newton's rings', a somewhat less than desirable interference effect where surfaces meet. For 120 size negs I have homemade black cardboard mask of the appropriate thickness with an aperture cut in it for 6x4.5 or 6x6 etc and I place the neg over it, then place a piece of anti-newton glass over it to hold it flat. A-N glass can be obtained online. Sorry to waffle on so much, but I hope some of this might help.
this is not a waffle, those are very good explanations and lessons that can be learned. your "waffle" can help lots of people, thank you for your comment!
When I first got my 4870 back in the early noughties there were a couple of discussion groups, one on yahoo and the other on the (sadly now long defunct) photo-i website about the Epsons and flatbeds in general. These places were great and were where I picked up a number of these little tricks from other more experienced folk. It's a shame they are no longer available.
With my 4870 scanning resolution sweetspot is 2400ppi. Anything more doesn't really gain anything image-wise. Using Epson's quoted max res of 4800ppi just results in a lot of empty resolution and unneccesarily large files. There was a useful trick I picked up back then from a guy who went by the online handle Kev.germany (or something like that) - if you set the scanning resolution to 2405ppi (assuming you normally go for 2400) you get a small but noticeable increase in very fine detail. No-one at the time knew why, but it worked, so I always follow that proceedure. You could scan at max resolution and downsize in your editor to grt the absolute most out of it, but that's obviously much more of a faff-on time and effort wise. Well, I seem to be on a roll this morning with my waffle lol😂
This makes complete sense Ralph - I had to scan around 100 of dads negs all of them 9x6 which was quite a faff with the frames that came with the scanner. Home made with black card makes sense. The white light from the top of the scanner is in a strip as Luis has mentioned so a home made frame and AN glass that aligns to that is going to be my best bet - maybe made with mountboard??? Looks like I'll be experimenting again...along with everything else!😄
experimenting is the name of the game 😁
and I'm glad you did with your lovely photo! You also got a good conversation going.
Mountboard sounds good, though you may want to black the edges of the cut-out to avoid reflections (or you may not - it might be fine as-is). There’s a company called betterscanning.com started many years ago by a guy called Doug Fisher, who designed custom film carrier units for various flatbed scanners, that have AN glass and adjustable height. The site looks rather dated, so I don’t know if they’re still going. It may be worth an email if you’re interested.
Wow - there's a site for everything if you dig deep! A useful one to bare in mind. Only issue is they're US based which I imagine means we're now subject to ridiculous taxes to get goods into the country. Looks like there's an opening for a clever soul to do this over here in the UK.😊
Mm, hadn't thought of the possible tariffs issue 😬. Yes, if soneone was suitably enterprising with a 3D printer etc....🤔🤓
I know of this company, Ralph and I almost bought new carriers for my V600 but decided to try the manual, dedicated camera approach first. Honestly, the quality is finicky so I may end up buying the carrier. We shall see!
few people here on substack are swearing by "scanning" with a camera and especially a macro lens. i don't know, never tried it but as long as my 4490 is going, i'm happy
I tried it and to me, it does give a bit more, but maybe I'm being highly picky and nothing will ever be good enough! I'm trying to make sure I am doing things right though before I give up. It could be just because I miss printing in the darkroom and find the prints so magical.
LOMOGRAPHY sells a good 35mm and 120 carrier for curly negatives. It's magnetic and pulls the neg nice and flat. However, it's a little thicker than the original holders and depending on the scanner specs and scanning software you may have to adjust the focus. Not supported in all scanners. Also great for DSLR scanning if not.
Thats good to know, thanks.
Such a nice post, Perfectlight! We’re always learning when we experiment which only shows that we have to do it much, much more! We forget also too often that is because people before us experimented that we can have/do a lot the things that we do now. I’m going to write EXPERIMENT in big letters and stick it to my computer.😊
if that works for you, please do and don't be afraid to experiment, we have to try
Good stuff! It's surprising what a change of settings at the scanning stage can do. Thanks for sharing.
thank you for reading and your insightful "waffle" 😊
Experimenting is fun. It gives us the freedom to make "mistakes". I find that very liberating.
i agree! we have to try
Thanks for sharing this. I must give it a try, and hope my V600 will keep up with it :)
try it, cost you nothing but if working, you have totally different options.
Wow, what a difference. The final image has a much nicer tones (imho).
i think that too.
I play with colour mostly^^
A thought about scanning your B&W as color. For starters, you just aren't getting a decent exposure on your b&w scan. However that's being set up it's quite underexposed based on the histogram. The shadows are crushed and there is nothing in the hilight end. The color version histogram looks very good. So if your exposure was adjusted in the b&w you ought to see virtually the same image either way. Where it would matter is in the printed image if you choose to print it in full color instead of greyscale. You would get much richer blacks and more tonal range as you would with a darkroom print. The catch, though is that printing a b&w in color is likely to show color casts if it's a fraction out of register. I use printing software that scales back the other colors to avoid that. I think SilverEfex Pro is wonderful software but you have to start with a full color scan to get the benefit of the filters - green, orange, red, yellow, etc. - and simulate the effects I used to get with film. Those were the days.
your input is appreciated, very good points. i have no intention of printing that image not in a darkroom nor digitally. my idea for this post was to show how scanner can be used to give more option and be more creative. why the exposure changed when scanning in 2 different setting, i have no idea. yes, i have the option to manually change the exposure while i'm scanning but i didn't touch that.
I love this! I have a 4990 and guess what I'll be doing for my next scans lol? What scan software are you using? I have silverfast and vuescan, new to the latter, the former can be complicated but there a lot of great features, like manual focusing, except you need a license for every scanner!
the original software that came with the scanner. i don't need anything more than that
Experimentation and discovery are among the greatest joys of creating things, I think.
i agree!
Take an extension cord, bring your scanner out onto the dark, and use it to photograph something. Seriously. Give it a shot.
that's an idea! thank you!